A conversation with Donna Ryngala, PhD

We Are All Messy, Scared, and Human

Meet Donna - Part 1

1.  You’ve been a psychologist for nearly twenty years. What drew you to this work originally, and has your understanding of what therapy is changed over that time?

It was 20 years this May when I graduated with my PhD! 

Like everyone in this field: I was the friend that everyone else would talk to and when I started taking classes, I found the material endlessly fascinating. I realized in my senior year of college that I wanted to pursue my PhD and received lots of “PhD programs are hard to get into” “Do you have a back up plan?” It was hard to do but since my first day of graduate school, I have never regretted going into psychology.

One thing that is distinctive about being a psychologist is that I have so many options available to me. Currently, I am a therapist but I also have a lot of training and experience so I also act as an administrator and supervisor. I also have a great deal of experience in working with families in the court system conducting assessments and acting as an expert witness in determining best interests of the children decisions. 

I find the human psyche fascinating and I have been privileged to support many people in psychotherapy, diagnostic assessment, supervision and guidance throughout my career.

2.  You spent years at the VA as an intern, postdoctoral fellow, and staff psychologist. That’s a formative arc. What did working with veterans teach you about trauma, about healing, and about what it takes to sit with someone in real pain?

When Clinical Psychology students complete their studies, we have to complete an internship year that is similar to residency in medicine. I was so fortunate to be placed at the prestigious Boston VA with affiliations of Boston University and Harvard. The Veteran Affairs is the largest trainer of psychologists in the country and they are equipped to do it well with direct trainings and supervision from some of the top researchers in trauma and substance abuse. How many people can say that they worked with the creators of Cognitive Processing Therapy, Seeking Safety and did co-therapy with the creator of Behavioral Couples Therapy for SA? The years as an intern and a postdoctoral fellow were formative in that I was learning the best practices while also working with veterans from the Vietnam War and the wars in the middle east. I had the opportunity to see the long and short term impact of war related trauma, military sexual trauma and childhood trauma. At the VA and across my career, I learn something from every person I have sat across from.

3.  Your bio mentions that the VA work deepened your commitment to mentoring other clinicians. Why does that matter to you? Why think about the next generation of therapists?

I have been privileged to have the training that I have received. And I have heard too often from clients that their previous therapist was “nice” or “supportive” but that they really did not get much from meeting with them. There is so much suffering in this world and I think as therapists we have a duty to provide good, science informed and human delivered care to the best of our ability. I see the training of the next generation of therapists less as a duty to them and more as a calling to be of service to the public. 

4.  You describe therapy as a ‘collaborative effort’ and yourself as ‘walking alongside’ clients. What does collaboration actually look like inside a session? What’s the difference between a truly collaborative therapist and one who isn’t?

Great question! When meeting with Marcia and Adri  earlier today, I was observing that if 10 of my clients got together and talked about the type of therapy I provide, they might think they were talking about a different person! I use some of the same principles, such and acceptance and mindfulness based therapies and attachment theory to guide the session but through collaboration with my clients, this can look vastly different depending on the client’s current context and particular view of their life. The good thing about the work I do is that it promotes psychological flexibility and I need to model that as much as possible as we collaborate!

5.  You wrote that vulnerability should be ‘met with compassion.’ What does it actually take to build that kind of trust with a new client, especially one who’s had difficult therapy experiences before?

I was a visiting professor at the university for a short period of time and I taught and supervised graduate students. During that year, I learned the term therapeutic love and I was so grateful that we were allowed to call it what it is! I love working with humans and showing them that people can be nurturing, warm, and show unconditional positive regard despite their very human ‘faults’. We are all messy, scared, and human and when a therapist shows that she can be trusted and safe, then there is room for vulnerability. And connection grows in vulnerability.  

6.  You describe KAP as offering ‘a glimpse into full integratio, bridging thoughts, emotions, physiology, and spirituality.’ Can you unpack that? What does integration actually look like for a client who gets there?

It certainly looks different for everyone. However, I think that talk therapy works well with supporting a person thinking or acting differently. The hard problem though, is that emotions don’t always follow the cognition and behavior and it can take a long time for those to be linked. With Ketamine, people are able to access the felt sense of emotions that have previously been inaccessible to them. The felt sense of emotions and spirituality are similar -it a way of ‘knowing’ that is not thought. Ketamine can occasion an integration of thought, emotion, behavior and spirit in a way that is awe inspiring. 

7.  You said that traditional therapy sometimes ‘leaves clients unable to see over the next hill.’ What does KAP make visible that talk therapy can’t always reach?

One of the clear themes I have seen emerge from this practice is the sense of perspective that one can glean. A common visual is the sense of soaring which can cause a ‘zoomed out’ view of our lives. When we are struggling, we can get stuck in nt only just seeing the tree and forsaking the forest, but looking so closely out our problems that all we see is an ant on the bark of a tree. Ketamine can help people to gain a wider perspective with a focus on what is really important (hint-usually things like love, connection, compassion, etc).

Learn more about Donna in Part 2!